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[shirley]

Just can't help yourself, nothing useful to say except the usual hot air.  If there are errors lets hear them otherwise keep stook if that is possible.

Only by looking at the established facts in this case can we ever possibly be able to understand what occurred. As I said before, becoming lemmings solves absolutely nothing, it is reasoned logical debate we need with appropriate argument where there are opposing opinion. Arguments without evidence is irrelevant.

Name calling and profanities have no place in intellectual debate.

As HaveHope, Hazel and Gingerbeer have alluded to, lets get down to the nitty gritty and provide some answers instead of trying to deride every suggestion that you don't personally agree with.

[outsider]

we must all believe shirleys version as shirley has most exellently pointed out  that luke and only luke and no one else could have been in a green jacket on 30th june 2003...now everyone must accept this as fact  luke owns the only green jacket in the area YOU MUST BE OFF THIS PLANET TO THINK OTHERWISE

shirley posted
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Did Luke see another fellow nearby dressed in dark trousers and a green Bomber jacket as he hung around waiting on Jodi? ...not likely unless he was looking in a mirror.
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see thats reason and proof that anyone seen in the area that day in a green jacket was Luke  as shirley has convincingly told us... your not allowed to have your own view folks ..no opposition to shirleys view allowed .

so there you go folks the only person for miles around in a green jacket has to be Luke.
Its obvious to all therefore that luke must be the person seen by AB and by the 2 females as Luke was the only one in a green jacket as shirley has told us this.

YOU WORKED IT OUT FOLKS...

or could someone else have been in a green jacket shirley  ..come on explain who ? as you told us for a fact that it cant be MK as you know he had no green jackets.. well thats what you told us.

seems to me shirley that you need to fill people in on how you think anything you have come up with will help prove luke innocent ?

[shirley]

Still waiting on some intelligible post!



Just to humour him MODERATED : Provocative...

* Luke was the only one stood at the end of Newbattle Abbey Crescent at 6pm on 30 June 2003 wearing a green BOMBER jacket.

* Who was the youth stood at the wooden gate on Newbattle Road at 5.42pm wearing a green jacket on 30 June 2003?

PS...a clue!     ....that wiz 18 minutes earlier


MODERATED : provocative

[outsider]

so let me get this right shirley  only luke in the area owns a parka jacket and green bomber jacket as its only your view that counts.

shirleys version..Luke and only luke was in a green parka jacket and is seen by AB   he kills jodi and is seen by 2 females who are not mistaken  or lying in a green parka jacket ..look goes home , gets mum to cover for him and goes out in his bomber jacket.

great shirley  so luke admits it was him at the gate and him and his mum lied  well done shirley...you solved the case it seems by your deductions that prosecution witnesses dont make mistakes  and dont lie.
#
well timescale issues never stopped the prosecution did it ?

so whats next then shirley

personally i think you talk utter rubbish but there you go...thats the new facts according to shirley the god of justice and truth now with this story  shirley ..you show me why luke can be proved not to be the killer


how about it was not luke at the wooden gate or the 2 females mistaken or telling lies... eh  what then  ...but you told everyone it is to luke's advantage to say he was at the gate...

time you explained yourself shirley  dont ignore... you answer..
dont do the usual evasion !

[outsider]

SHIRLEY
YOUR 2 WITNESSES SAID LUKE WAS IN A LONG JACKET  NOT A BOMBER JACKET

so not rocket science is it..  you told us that the females were not mistaken or lying so luke cant be in a bomber jacket according to you shirley  ..have I got that right or wrong 
lets do this bit by bit

[shirley]

A long jacket which was hip length??   Been on the beer again?

[shirley]

so let me get this right shirley  only luke in the area owns a parka jacket and green bomber jacket as its only your view that counts.

shirleys version..Luke and only luke was in a green parka jacket and is seen by AB   he kills jodi and is seen by 2 females who are not mistaken  or lying in a green parka jacket ..look goes home , gets mum to cover for him and goes out in his bomber jacket.

great shirley  so luke admits it was him at the gate and him and his mum lied  well done shirley...you solved the case it seems by your deductions that prosecution witnesses dont make mistakes  and dont lie.
#
well timescale issues never stopped the prosecution did it ?

so whats next then shirley

personally i think you talk utter rubbish but there you go...thats the new facts according to shirley the god of justice and truth now with this story  shirley ..you show me why luke can be proved not to be the killer


how about it was not luke at the wooden gate or the 2 females mistaken or telling lies... eh  what then  ...but you told everyone it is to luke's advantage to say he was at the gate...

time you explained yourself shirley  dont ignore... you answer..
dont do the usual evasion !

What and hide away all day like you?

[outsider]

the 2 female witnesses said parka length which is well below the hip shirley

dont you ever read information posted up .?

so was it a parka length jacket or a bomber jacket...
clear answer as to what you say luke was wearing as your  2 females you tell us were not mistaken or lying

[outsider]

shirley posted
--------------------------------------------------------------
A long jacket which was hip length??   Been on the beer again?
--------------------------------------------------------------
erm not a clear answer there ..wonder why you cant give a staright answer shirley..  oh your saying you have been on the beer.

back to the point

as you seem reluctant to give a straight answer I will ask again

*****************************************

the 2 female witnesses said parka length which is well below the hip shirley

dont you ever read information posted up .?

so was it a parka length jacket or a bomber jacket...luke was wearing according to your version of the facts.

clear answer as to what you say luke was wearing as your  2 females you tell us were not mistaken or lying

parka length jacket or a bomber jacket 

[outsider]

Thanx for shifting it here admin.

Now shirley answer the last question posed please nice and clearly so everyone knows exactly what you mean.

so when  supposed seen by the 2 females , do you shirley say luke was wearing a parka length jacket or a bomber jacket
 
no fudging or evading say it clearly .

[outsider]

shirley posted in response to my sensible posts this
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Again, given that a maximum of 20 minutes is available between the time of the murder and the sighting at the wooden gate, outsider claims that Luke could have ran home, a distance of over 800 metres, washed himself thoroughly, changed clothes, disposed of the contaminated clothing (bear in mind that he would have had to have had two sets of everything), made two phone calls, and ran back to the wooden gate, another 650 metres.  But the punchline is readers...NO ONE SAW HIM DO THIS??

So much for outsiders series of events.

Yes, I am afraid that the only way Luke could have been at that gate was if he walked there from home after having his tea around 5.15pm. The very time when Jodi was having her throat cut 800 metres away by some as yet unidentified animal.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I DO NOT BELEIVE LUKE WAS THE KILLER ...HOWEVER WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT IS REASONABLY POSSIBLE SO HAVE TO GO ALONG WITH THE CONTENTIONS

so now lets deal with the faults in shirleys pack of untruths .

"Again, given that a maximum of 20 minutes is available between the time of the murder and the sighting at the wooden gate"

the time of the murder was contended to be after 5.00pm and before 5.30pm   so was about 5.15pm by reckoning only...no hard facts as to time. I have already gave a detailed time/distance scenario that shows a 15 minute time window to commit the murder and be finished by 5.15pm. I have given an alternative also for the murder starting at 5.15pm.
The claim of 20 minutes is thus false and not supported  5.15 to 5.42 is 27 minutes and not 20 minutes.


outsider claims that Luke could have ran home, a distance of over 800 metres, washed himself thoroughly, changed clothes, disposed of the contaminated clothing (bear in mind that he would have had to have had two sets of everything), made two phone calls, and ran back to the wooden gate, another 650 metres.


Remember that with the murder starting before 5.15  and Luke leaving the scene at 5.15pm then there are 27 minutes available and not the 20 minutes shirley wrongly claims.
Now some distance and average walking speed facts.  Luke did not need to run as I never said that--Shirley in order to try discrediting has lied when saying I said Luke would need to run

the distance from murder site to Lukes home was a total of 1000 m..
400m murder site to Newbattle Rd then 600m to his home from the end of the path.
1000 m at average walking speed of 80m per minute gives time to walk home of 12.5 minutes


so we have luke leave murder site at 5.15 and home at 5.27.30 seconds...thats right  home before 5.30 at average walking speed.

A quick change into clean clothes and soiled ones to be given to mother to dispose of and luke then needs to be at the wooden gate for 5.42
distance to gate is about 560m (luke now in bomber jacket)
again we will have luke walking  at average walking speed of 80 m per minute  . It would take luke 7 minutes to reach the wooden gate WALKING.  To be at the wooden gate by 5.42pm Luke would need to leave home at 5.35 pm.
That means when luke arrived home PURELY WALKING..NO RUNNING HE HAS 7.5 MINUTES TO CHANGE CLOTHES , RAPIDLY CLEAN , AND ASK HIS MOTHER TO DISPOSE OF BLOODSTAINED CLOTHES
this is all potentially possible ..though tight with little room to spare and invlovles no running whatsoever.
HAVE YOU NOTICED SHIRLEY GETS DISTANCES WRONG AS WELL AS TIMES AS WELL AS FALSELY CLAIMING A NEED TO RUN.

shirley;
"Yes, I am afraid that the only way Luke could have been at that gate was if he walked there from home after having his tea around 5.15pm. The very time when Jodi was having her throat cut 800 metres away by some as yet unidentified animal."

What shirley has not told us is that this bit was not believed in the original trial and there is no reason to accept it now. It is what the prosecution claimed that has to be dealt with and shown to be wrong.Just declaring something to be the case is not going to get anywhere.
What shirley clearly gets wrong is the next bit  Jodi getting her throat cut at 800 m away from Lukes home...not by a walking route it was not... that would be 1000m   ...it may be 800m as the crow flies.


oh but I have proved it was possible on the prosecutions contentions...that Luke could have got home and changed into a bomber jacket to be seen at 5.42pm.

SO ANY CLAIM THAT LUKE WAS SEEN AT 5.42pm by the 2 females  is not proof at all that Luke could not have killed Jodi... It adds nothing to his defence at all.  That is the way it is .

[outsider]

MODERATORS NOTE : This post is in response to one which has been archived since it was offensive/provocative and contributed nothing to debate

you evaded the question again
 what jacket do you say luke was in at the wooden gate shirley
some on
a parka length jacket or a bomber jacket
give a straight answer

[shirley]

A quick change into clean clothes and soiled ones to be given to mother to dispose of .....

So now you are calling Corinne a liar?   Some supporter you pretend to be!  lol

[outsider]

not at all shirley as you well know .

you quoting something out of context as anyone who reads the post it was extracted from will be able to tell.

shirleys post saved here
-----------------------------------------------------------
Insert Quote
Quote from: outsider on Today at 10:54:03 PM



A quick change into clean clothes and soiled ones to be given to mother to dispose of .....


So now you are calling Corinne a liar?   Some supporter you pretend to be!  lol
-----------------------------------------------------------------

NOW PLEASE REMEMBER shirley
I do not believe Corinne is a liar.ok

recently Corinne made a post clearly stating Luke left home at 5.40 pm ...

now you read the post as you commented shirley....

and then following you have repeatedly put up "your" timelines clearly stating that Luke left home at 5.30pm

Now as far as the rest of the world is bothered ...it is clear by your very actions in continuing to post 5.30pm that you do not believe the information given to you by Corinne Mitchell.
The deduction that falls to be made from your actions is that you shirley do not believe Corinne and that she is therefore lying in giving false information.
YOU SHIRLEY ARE THE ONE MAKING CORINNE OUT TO BE A LIAR because your actions betray your false claims of support.

[outsider]

  shirley you evaded the question yet again
 what jacket do you say luke was in at the wooden gate shirley
come on

a parka length jacket or a bomber jacket
give a straight answer